Adobe Reader Submit
A while back I was participating in a forum discussion on Reader submit. The original question was “Can Reader e-mail a form?”
There were a flood of responses, all along the lines of “No,” and “only with Adobe Reader Extensions Server.” (For more on ARES, see Duff Johnson’s Reader Extensions Manifesto.)
When I took a contrary view, I was shouted down, again with a chorus of “No,” and “only with Adobe Reader Extensions Server.”
I was puzzled. What is going on with these usually reasoned, generally well informed Acrobat users?
Now for some background. First, it is true that Reader cannot submit a complete PDF form via e-mail. However, Adobe Reader 7 (and earlier versions) can submit the data from a form via e-mail. Since one of the big benefits of PDF forms is the capability to separate the form from the data, transmitting the data instead of the form should work just fine, if this kind of small-scale workflow design works for your organization.
So why were so many generally well informed users saying this couldn’t be done? I think I have come up with an answer.
If you strictly use the Acrobat Pro GUI, Reader can e-mail the data. If you use simple JavaScript, it won’t work.
To see what I mean, open this file in Reader.
The button on the left was programmed entirely in the GUI by using the Button Properties | Actions | Submit a Form technique. The button on the right is set up to do the same thing, except that it uses a simple JavaScript. (Button Properties | Actions | Run a JavaScript)
Both work in Acrobat 7.07. Only the button on the left works in Reader 7.07. In other words, there is some limitation in Reader that prevents it from sending form data via e-mail with a JavaScript action.
I believe this is a source of confusion among even sophisticated users. I certainly wasn’t clear on this until I created the test file.
What do you think? Should Adobe give equal treatment to both kinds of submit buttons?
August 2nd, 2006 at 6:32 am
Aw shugs Carl, whenever have you been shouted down?
The JS method you use requires the pdf to be form enabled, this info can be found in the JS reference. (the method is labelled with a ‘F’.)
Also you’d do well to include this link in your post which goes into more detail how to set up an email workflow for simple forms:
(post 4 and onwards)
http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx/.3bbb313f/1
August 2nd, 2006 at 1:36 pm
Thanks for the clarification, and the link should be helpful to many.
My point still stands–I think many users believe Reader can’t submit via e-mail because of the restrictions on the JavaScript e-mail technique.
—Carl
August 3rd, 2006 at 12:29 pm
I’ve read through the documents at http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx/.3bbb313f/1 and I don’t see any mention of setting up an e-mail workflow. In fact, http://www.adobe.com/support/techdocs/328647.html makes no mention of Reader’s e-mail capabilities at all. The document says you can only use Reader to submit data online if the PDF has been Reader enabled, which is simply not the case.
—Carl
August 3rd, 2006 at 3:29 pm
Hi Carl,
Yes, I have seen the responses where people insist that “the only ‘reliable’ way to submit PDF forms is with Reader Extensions.”
I emphasize the word reliable because some of these people have weaseled their way out of their blanket statements that you must have Reader Extensions by adding the word reliable.
I am angry at this because I believe the comments from the so-called “experts” of the Acrobat community are influencing how Adobe wants Acrobat to work.
I am one of the people who believes strongly that creating a PDF “Submit Form” data button is the best possible solution for those using Reader. It is unfortunate, though, that Adobe has not promoted this solution as the low-cost solution for charities and other companies that cannot afford Reader Extensions.
Worse, when Reader opens a document that does have a submit form data button, Reader displays a message that says that the only way to submit the form is to print it! It is only when the user presses the submit form data button that they find out they can, indeed, submit the form. (There is NO DIFFERENCE TO THE USER (sorry for shouting) between submitting a form and submitting the form data.)
I also wish that Adobe would promote the use of the File> Save as Text command for Reader. While this command does not save the formatting and visual display of a form, it DOES SAVE the data within the form buttons. This becomes a disk copy of the information that the Reader user has filled out.
Again, for most Reader users there is no difference (I stopped shouting) between saving the form information as a plain text file versus saving it as a PDF file.
The Reader user just wants to remember what the hell they typed.
Any how, I suspect that you and I are a minority.
Oh well, won’t be the first time I was out there on a limb. It’s just nice to have company.
– Sandee “Vectorbabe” Cohen
August 3rd, 2006 at 5:22 pm
Hi Carl,
It is also interesting to note that the majority of ‘experts’ that insist that you submit your form data to a webserver, do so with the caviat “it’s difficult to control your users email settings”. As an IT manager I >DO
August 3rd, 2006 at 6:32 pm
Dear Carl,
This is an interesting subject. We use fillable, submittable PDF forms on our website for lots of things. Clients only need the free Adobe Reader.
We make these forms using our own software called OneForm Designer Plus (OFDP). With OFDP and Adobe Acrobat, a form owner or originator can add many functions to make PDF forms:
• fillable
• submittable
• database-connected
• pre-populated
• field flattened
Clients opening our PDF forms only need the free Adobe Reader to fill out, submit, re-open with submitted data, and/or print.
Forms handler scripts provide the critical link between submittable forms and the web server database management system. Amgraf’s OFDP software automatically generates these server scripts when the fillable PDF form is created, including those for the database connectivity functions.
For local saving of a filled PDF form, the client needs a license for Adobe Acrobat or the PDF form has to be enabled with extended rights. Using Amgraf’s free OneForm Manager Lite utility, HTML versions of these same forms can be locally saved as an alternative.
There are demonstrations of fill-and-submit PDF forms on Amgraf’s web site at www.amgraf.com/pages/iforms.html.
Yours truly,
Franklin Garner III
August 3rd, 2006 at 11:31 pm
Franklin,
You’re missing the point of this discussion.
Your software costs $5,000 for one license.
It runs on Windows only.
And you have to generate the form using your software.
Not what my clients want or can use.
Especially given the fact that everything they need is already in Acrobat for no additional charges.
August 4th, 2006 at 12:00 pm
Carl,
This has got to be the most awesome PDF forms tip I’ve read in ages!!! Thanks a bunch for bringing this capability to the forefront. By the way, you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT in your assessment of the Acrobat expert community on this one. I’m one of these long time experts, and I must confess that I have been completely fooled by this sublety right from the start!
Two things fooled me. 1) giving up when the javascript method failed with Reader. 2) believing Adobe’s sparse documentation about the Submit Form feature. All my efforts revolved around browser/server based data submittals. It never crossed my mind to try outside the browser with a mailto.
Speaking of mailto, one thing in your demo file will certainly cause most users problems. That is the preconfigured email address in the URL link drop down box of the Submit Form dialog. You can’t leave this option blank. It won’t work if you do so, but at the same time it’s usually preferrable for the email client to open with a blank email address. To accomplish this I put in the following link: mailto:???@???
It works with MS Outlook. I haven’t tried it with other email clients.
Personally I think it would be a good idea to also include a button that allows the user to email him/herself the blank form. It’s likely that many users will email themselves their data but forget to download the form.
August 4th, 2006 at 12:38 pm
pdfExpert,
Why is it usually preferrable for the email client to open with a blank email address in this situation? Or are you just talking about demo files?
In this situation, the Reader user doesn’t know the mailto address of the organization they are sending the e-mail to. So it would be better if the email address is already filled in and ready to go its merry way.
>Personally I think it would be a good idea to also include a button that allows the user to email him/herself the blank form.
But the user already has the blank form! That’s what they filled out.
Or do you mean to email the fdf info to themself? Not possible as Reader can’t import FDF data.
That’s why I suggest it would be good to have a button that saves the form as text. But it’s not necessary to e-mail the black form to oneself
August 4th, 2006 at 1:27 pm
Vectorbabe,
If I am reading your comment right about the FDF data, then this only applies to users submitting info that they entered into a form, correct?
I ask because we have a process that user info entered on ASP pages and then later a process runs that uses the data to fill FDF fields and then populate the PDF. From what you are saying, this FDF data is not easily accessible without some other type of enhancement?
Thanks!
NJ
August 4th, 2006 at 2:21 pm
Vectorbabe, you do have a valid point about supplying an email address if you are using email to submit the form data to a recipient other than the user, but from my experience and in a government environment this is only useful in a minority of cases. Most of the time people want to save their data on their own computer.
Also, using email as a submittal system is generally a poor choice. It can be done, but I would only do it as a means of last resort. It is far better to submit via http directly to a server/workflow/database back end system.
Yes, my intention is to have a user email his own form data back to himself, for record keeping and improved productivity. For example, my employer requires that I submit certain personal forms (ie vacation and sick leave) in paper only. I keep a paper copy for my own records, but I like to keep electronic versions too, so that next time I need to fill out these forms I can simply open an existing FDF file, make a few modifications, and more easily create a new version without having to type everything in all over again. Emailing an FDF to myself is a convenient way to keep personal records and is also useful for creating reusable boilerplate information.
Emailing FDF data as an attachment and submitting FDF data via http are two vastly different things. Email is a poor system for submitting data to a back end system, but it is a reasonably good workaround for saving personal data on a local disk.
Even if a user submits their form data to a server, they usually still need to be able to save a copy for their personal records, and why print out only a hard copy (a printer may not always be available) when you can simply save an electronic copy, which you can also print at a later time if necessary.
As for the user having the blank form, that’s not always the case. They may have clicked on a link in a web page and opened the PDF form inside their web browser. Yes a copy will be kept in the browser’s cache, but many users don’t know this, and sending then looking for this cached copy is a totally inappropriate way of dealing with the matter. It is far preferrable to give them an easy option for emailing themselves the form directly, where they have control over where the form is saved and how it is named. It’s not always about whether it’s technically possible or not, you also have to consider the usability and accessibility sides of the issue.
As for the lack of FDF import in Reader, what you say is somewhat misleading. I agree that there is no menu option to import an FDF, but it can easily be done other ways, and they are just as valid.
The user can open the FDF file instead of the form. The FDF format saves a link to the form which makes this possible. My favorite method is to simply open the PDF form and then drag and drop the FDF file onto the form. That will populate the form with the data. Both methods work just as well as an import menu.
I hope that clarifies my first statements.
August 4th, 2006 at 2:50 pm
> Also, using email as a submittal system is generally a poor choice. It can be done, but I would only do it as a means of last resort. It is far better to submit via http directly to a server/workflow/database back end system.
AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THUMP!
THUMP!
THUMP!
(Sandee is hitting her head against a brick wall!!!)
And now we’re back to the original comments from another “expert” who, like the others, doesn’t understand the needs of the ordinary users.
What makes YOU the expert as to what these small organizations need and can afford? You have no idea what the small business owner, charity, school, church, or other organization without a big budget needs or wants.
YOU are one of the people who is causing the confusion in the Acrobat community.
YOU are one of the people who try to dissuade users from using the Submit Form button.
YOU are one of the people who confuse even Adobe employees into thinking that you can’t submit form data except with Reader Extensions.
And regarding your comment that “The user can open the FDF file instead of the form. The FDF format saves a link to the form which makes this possible. My favorite method is to simply open the PDF form and then drag and drop the FDF file onto the form. That will populate the form with the data. Both methods work just as well as an import menu.”
I haven’t been able to get that to work in Reader. Perhaps you have confused your own Acrobat workflow with a Reader one.
August 4th, 2006 at 3:26 pm
I’m running Acrobat 7 Pro and Reader 7 side by side, at the same time, and they both accept the FDF using the methods I described, so I can’t possibly be confused about that. So Vectorbabe perhaps you just don’t know what you’re talking about.
My suggestion: A little less THUMPING (that brick wall doesn’t deserve your abuse), and a little more research on your part.
August 8th, 2006 at 1:00 pm
Carl and others,
the forum thread I linked to has 8 posts. The email workflow starts in post 4 of that thread as I mentioned.
August 11th, 2006 at 2:25 pm
Hello Vectorbabe,
I am replying to your comments about using Amgraf’s OneForm software to create submittable PDF forms that work with the free Adobe Reader.
“Your software costs $5,000 for one license.”
This is inaccurate. The license with PDF functionality is $7,500. With that license you can create an unlimited number of forms for and unlimited number of users on an unlimited number of servers. Small organizations cannot justify this license fee so we recommend that they work with OneForm service bureaus that create (and optionally host) PDF forms for clients who cannot afford to purchase the software.
“It runs on Windows only.”
This is true. OneForm Designer is a Windows application. However, forms created with OneForm work on any browser platform and can be hosted on almost any web server.
“And you have to generate the form using your software.”
This is true. OneForm does a great job of producing fillable, submittable PDF forms with all the server-side scripts and database connections that you are seeking.
“Not what my clients want or can use.”
I don’t get it. From your messages in this blog, it appears that you need exactly what OneForm provides. If you would like us to open one of your PDF forms in our software and generate a working example, we would be happy to do that for free.
“Especially given the fact that everything they need is already in Acrobat for no additional charges.”
This is questionable. I do not know anyone that uses Acrobat alone to create server-side forms handlers with database connectivity.
Yours truly,
Franklin Garner III
August 15th, 2006 at 2:16 pm
[…] My earlier post on submitting form data via E-mail from Reader generated quite a few comments. I thought I would follow up with more details on how to make the process work. […]
October 30th, 2006 at 1:07 pm
I have created the form with submit button and it emails the form all filled in using the reader 7 as well as the full acrobat version. My problem is that the information filled into the form remains in the cache so the next time you visit the webpage from the same computer, the information is already on the form. How do I get the page to reset after every submission? Here is my example http://mainelaw.usm.maine.edu/library/Application.pdf
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